nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

How do you and your Francophone loved ones manage grammatical gender in French? I have a nonbinary friend who's a native English speaker and is learning French. They're trying to figure it out for themself. They're aware of «iel», and I'm planning to tell them about e.g. «amusant·e·s».

Please boost.

I'm much more interested in direct experiences from nonbinary Francophones and their loved ones than theory. Thank you <3

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

cc @Sheinicorn maybe? I don't think you know me, so sorry for this imposition. I'm tagging you because I know you post in French and that you use they pronouns in English, so it's a guess you might have some ideas. I won't be offended at all if you disregard.

PS I love your art <3 <3 :-)

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nonbinary identities in French? 

A couple folks have mentioned using æ for nonbinary identites, e.g. «æl», «choquæ». How do you pronounce that?

I'm familiar with mainstream French pronunciation generally, but I think I've only seen that letter in French in the name Lætitia, and I've only seen that written, never pronounced :-)

@punky @azaliz @Luna @amaranthe

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nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai aw sure :) (and thanks a lot for your kind words 😊) French is very gendered so it's a though one for us haha. When I write I use often use 'iel' and 'inclusive writing' ('l'écriture inclusive') (je suis content-e). But I also switch a lot between he/she pronouns since it's a lot easier to use, especially when speaking out loud xD

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@Sheinicorn Thanks!

re: nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@Sheinicorn @epilanthanomai

For what it's worth, as a teenager I re-taught myself French to be able to speak in first and third person without gendering the subject (mostly myself; there were no signs something might be up with my gender), but it involves a bunch of complicated grammatical footwork that I wouldn't demand of others:

a common cause for gendering are past declensions of verbs (“participes passés”) which can either be avoided by switching between active or passive voices, or (if wanting to avoid gendering the sentence's object, the “COD”) by laying out the sentence so that the declension comes before the object (OK, I cannot explain French grammar, let alone in English) ;
some nouns, adjectives, etc. do have declensions that depend on gender, or which do not result in a difference in spoken language.

I should also warn that it's something I kind-of forgot when I stopped practicing it (I do not currently live in a French-speaking country) though maybe it's less of a problem if it's how they learn in the first place.

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai so grammatical gender in French is tough because one of the best solutions (the .e.s ending) doesn't work that well vocally

I myself use ole as my pronoun of choice, and I just ask that when people need to accorde to me that they mix it up between M and F, since in meatspace (which is primarily where I'm nonbinarily vocally french) it's much more evident that people are correctly gendering you than with .e.s.

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@Ophillous Thanks!

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai that being said, if .e.s is what your friend feels comfortable with, I've had a lot of success with really ennunciating whatever letter comes before that and pausing briefly for the periods

Like, in your example of « amusant.e.s. » I would introduce myself and make sure to give it a hard T and then e to emphasize the pause

Like « amusan T EUH »

And then as time goes on it just kind of falls into place naturally

re: nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai Their is no really good solution, but yeah, there is "iel" and middle dot, but it doesn't well when speaking.

for words that end in "eur/rice" you can use the "eurice" form. (exemple auteur/autrice -> auteurice)

kind of the same with "eur/euse" words.

re: nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@Ambraven Thanks!

re: nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@Ambraven @epilanthanomai
yeah, it's hell orally speaking. apart from iel, i've also seen people use ol or ul and they could come up with whatever neo-pronouns they want as well, if they feel so inclined. (i personally use ouaielle)

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai french is pretty fucked up for that

most common nb pronon is iel but there are a lot of other ones ofc

now, when it comes to every gendered word, you kind of have to deal with every word individually

when written, the "e.s" works for a lot of words ("amant•e"), but doesn't work well orally

you can also mix feminine and masculine forms "dessinateur"/"dessinatrice" => "dessinateurice", "belle"/"beau" => "belleau"

you can also use "æ" (comes from another common pronoun "æl"), for instance "amantæ"

other people just ask people to use feminine form for a first word, then when another gendered word is used, they have to use the masculine one

there are other ways but basically nothing works everytime cause french is shit

hope it helps ^^'

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai i use "iel" and i try to make periphrase when there is a gendered adjective, i also "æ" i place of "é" or "ée" (eg : "être amusæ" instead of "être amusé·e/amusé/amusée").

i use the feminine in some phrases, especialy in oral (and it compensate for the masc i get from most people)

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai my non-binary partner @gersande published a list of resources about non-binarity in French:

nonbinary identities in French? please boost 

@epilanthanomai has some sources about nonbinary and gender neutral language in French here, and I hope to add any good stuff from this thread to this page:

Your friend might like to read "The Baker Thief," a queer superhero fantasy which is written in English, with the understanding that the characters are really speaking Canadian French. It has a nonbinary character who goes by ol pronouns, and is described as a tall blondx, so x stands in for a gendered word ending.

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